My Wife - Seven Year Itch?

[Brian]

Hi!

My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.

Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.

Well, in a nutshell, since last Sunday:

she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.

My questions are:
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?

If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.

If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.

We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.

I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?

Thanks!

[Ignoramus15011]

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.

I hope that you have not been successful in getting her pregnant.

If she is pregnant, talk her into aborting the baby.
some signs that you are not her priority...

Post by Brian
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.

crying etc, is completely normal. You must however, no matter what,
use condoms, for two reasons, preventing venereal disease as well as
avoiding having babies with your wife.

Post by Brian
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?

no. but it is a very likely outcome.

Post by Brian
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?

it is never too early to diligently consider all possibilities in your
life. At this point, consider issues that are of significance, such
as:

1. Are there any unexplained large money flows from your accounts to
unknown accounts, and are there any new credit accounts recently
opened. Who is in charge of finances? Are you weill informed?

Post by Brian
What it really going on in her head?

who knows? I would rather concentrate on finding out what she is doing
and planning Where does she spend her nights out? Whom does she call?
Are there any hotel charges on her cards? Are there any gas charges
from gas stations in parts of town that she has no business being in?

Post by Brian
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would
make a world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand
the sight of me.

a couple of cheap words should not make that much difference.

Post by Brian
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to
get her dream car. She also loves this job and people call her
giggles and she seems to like this new attention she is getting. And
she really volunteers for Saturday's a lot now at work.

I am glad that she is gainfully employed.

Post by Brian
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by her not being in
need. Who incurred that debt? Are you talking about mortgage or credit
card debt?

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?

My mom told me a long time ago a thought that stuck to my mind. She
said, forget the pretty words. Love shows in actions. E.g. she could
say that she loves you. Anyone can say anything. But does she worry if
you get a cold, does she remind you of doctor appointments, does she
ask if you are tired, etc? Is there any objective evidence that she
has compassion and cares about you?

i

[Tony Miller]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:37:46 -0600, Brian
<***@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

<Snip>

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?

Check out: http://www.retrouvaille.org/

-Tony

[Brian]

Unfortunately, she would never agree to something like that..especially now.

Post by Tony Miller
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:37:46 -0600, Brian
<Snip>

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?

Check out: http://www.retrouvaille.org/
-Tony
--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

[Ignoramus15011]

Post by Brian
Unfortunately, she would never agree to something like that..especially now.

save this money, after divorce you can be banging some hot babe using
that money. You seem to be beyond the point of retrouvailling
etc. Just being nice and attentive to your wife is all that you
reasonably need to produce.

Note that if you see improved attitude from your wife, it could also
be due to the fact that things did not work out with her new
beau. This further underscores that you need to completely understand
and investigate just what is going on exactly.

It may be that she is having some really unrelated problem. For
example, maybe she is told that she has breast cancer, and reacted to
it in a destructive way. Who knows. Do not jump to
conclusions. Something other than you is a high priority. But what it
is, you do not know. Maybe it is not some other man.

i

Post by Brian

Post by Tony Miller
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:37:46 -0600, Brian
<Snip>

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of

this

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?

Check out: http://www.retrouvaille.org/
-Tony

time

Post by Tony Miller
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

[Tony Miller]

On 1 Dec 2003 20:50:19 GMT, Ignoramus15011

Post by Ignoramus15011

Post by Brian
Unfortunately, she would never agree to something like that..especially now.

save this money, after divorce you can be banging some hot babe using
that money. You seem to be beyond the point of retrouvailling
etc. Just being nice and attentive to your wife is all that you
reasonably need to produce.

Yup. Listen to the ignoramus.

-Tony

[JFK]

On 1 Dec 2003 20:50:19 GMT, Ignoramus15011

Post by Ignoramus15011

Post by Brian
Unfortunately, she would never agree to something like that..especially now.

save this money, after divorce you can be banging some hot babe using
that money.

Excellent advice.

[Tony Miller]

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:43:41 -0600, Brian

Post by Brian
Unfortunately, she would never agree to something like that..especially now.

Don't know what else to tell you.

Sorry,
-Tony

Post by Brian

Post by Tony Miller
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:37:46 -0600, Brian
<Snip>

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of

this

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?

Check out: http://www.retrouvaille.org/
-Tony
--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's

time

Post by Tony Miller
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

[Amos B. Moses]

Brian,
Been there, done that. Stop sleeping with her, go see a divorce lawyer
and get a hold of all your important papers. If you can, grab your kids and
leave. There is a divorce newsgroup as well and divorced mens groups you can
join. I'm telling you, Get out of this - she's made up her mind and is
getting ready to leave .

DON'T GET HER PREGNANT!!!!!!!! KIDS MAKE A DIVORCE TEN TIMES MORE PAINFUL,
EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED! DON'T ADD ANYONE ELSE TO THIS MESS BECAUSE THEY
ARE *N--O--T* GOING TO "FIX" ANYTHING!

I'm praying for you pal.

[Brian]

Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd take a
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.

Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is enough
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I honestly can't
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

Post by Amos B. Moses
Brian,
Been there, done that. Stop sleeping with her, go see a divorce lawyer
and get a hold of all your important papers. If you can, grab your kids and
leave. There is a divorce newsgroup as well and divorced mens groups you can
join. I'm telling you, Get out of this - she's made up her mind and is
getting ready to leave .
DON'T GET HER PREGNANT!!!!!!!! KIDS MAKE A DIVORCE TEN TIMES MORE PAINFUL,
EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED! DON'T ADD ANYONE ELSE TO THIS MESS BECAUSE THEY
ARE *N--O--T* GOING TO "FIX" ANYTHING!
I'm praying for you pal.

[Amos B. Moses]

I belonged to a divorced mens group for several years. What your describing
to me is almost an inevitable divorce situation. She's distancing herself.
Personally, someone that gave up like this isn't worth being married to.
She'll do it again if it gets better now. She's probably tired of the debt
situation (which she helped run up) and feels her ticket to happiness is
with someone who's doing better - Never saw it work out that way.

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Amos B. Moses
I belonged to a divorced mens group for several years. What your describing
to me is almost an inevitable divorce situation. She's distancing herself.
Personally, someone that gave up like this isn't worth being married to.
She'll do it again if it gets better now. She's probably tired of the debt
situation (which she helped run up) and feels her ticket to happiness is
with someone who's doing better - Never saw it work out that way.

Brian made it sound like he incurred that debt. I may be mistaken as
Brian was vague about it.

i

[Brian]

Well, because of the debt, there is no way we can afford to live apart if a
divorce is filed..can some couples still live together until it is final or
am I facing Bankruptcy? I could afford the house alone if she took off with
her CAR (will have to get it on her name or I keep it) and her credit card.

Post by Amos B. Moses
I belonged to a divorced mens group for several years. What your describing
to me is almost an inevitable divorce situation. She's distancing herself.
Personally, someone that gave up like this isn't worth being married to.
She'll do it again if it gets better now. She's probably tired of the debt
situation (which she helped run up) and feels her ticket to happiness is
with someone who's doing better - Never saw it work out that way.

[Amos B. Moses]

A divorce isn't easy, isn't fun and it sucks. You don't have any kids - Get
down on your knees and thank God for that - I had one kid in my divorce and
it was utter hell for years.

This will all be about money, Get all your important papers, bills and talk
to a Lawyer. A consulation is about $100 - make sure it's an older guy who
knows the ropes and just go for fair division of property. Let her be the
asshole if she wants.

[DrLith]

Post by Brian
Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd take a
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.
Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is enough
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I honestly can't
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

You've "not gotten along well for years"? Did you guys try to do anything
about that?

<Kathy once again shakes her head in amazement that someone could be
cruising along in a mediocre relationship for years and then get surprised
when their partner finally gives up on it>

I went back and re-read your first post, by the way. The first paragraph
tells it all:

My faults: I am a lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained.
Her faults: she gets irritated with my laziness, lack of motivation, etc.
etc.
It is easier for me to learn to accept her lack of patience than to try to
work on myself. I have accepted her flaws, why can't she accept mine?

I have been so lazy, unmotivated, etc., during our marriage that it makes
her scream, but I didn't care enough to stop it. Now she's being cold and it
makes me cry. Why doesn't she stop it?

Now, others could be right and she's found a better model. But, there's some
chance that it's her new job that has given her the confidence to let go of
a lousy marriage. Either way, she is very close to the brink--once the heart
goes cold, it is a long, rough road to rekindle it.

How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

[Brian]

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd take a
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.
Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is

enough

Post by Brian
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I honestly

can't

Post by Brian
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

You've "not gotten along well for years"? Did you guys try to do anything
about that?
<Kathy once again shakes her head in amazement that someone could be
cruising along in a mediocre relationship for years and then get surprised
when their partner finally gives up on it>
I went back and re-read your first post, by the way. The first paragraph
My faults: I am a lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained.
Her faults: she gets irritated with my laziness, lack of motivation, etc.
etc.
It is easier for me to learn to accept her lack of patience than to try to
work on myself. I have accepted her flaws, why can't she accept mine?
I have been so lazy, unmotivated, etc., during our marriage that it makes
her scream, but I didn't care enough to stop it. Now she's being cold and it
makes me cry. Why doesn't she stop it?
Now, others could be right and she's found a better model. But, there's some
chance that it's her new job that has given her the confidence to let go of
a lousy marriage. Either way, she is very close to the brink--once the heart
goes cold, it is a long, rough road to rekindle it.
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

[Tony Miller]

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:08:11 -0600, Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd take a
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.
Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is

enough

Post by Brian
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I honestly

can't

Post by Brian
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

You've "not gotten along well for years"? Did you guys try to do anything
about that?
<Kathy once again shakes her head in amazement that someone could be
cruising along in a mediocre relationship for years and then get surprised
when their partner finally gives up on it>
I went back and re-read your first post, by the way. The first paragraph
My faults: I am a lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained.
Her faults: she gets irritated with my laziness, lack of motivation, etc.
etc.
It is easier for me to learn to accept her lack of patience than to try to
work on myself. I have accepted her flaws, why can't she accept mine?
I have been so lazy, unmotivated, etc., during our marriage that it makes
her scream, but I didn't care enough to stop it. Now she's being cold and

it

Post by Brian
makes me cry. Why doesn't she stop it?
Now, others could be right and she's found a better model. But, there's

some

Post by Brian
chance that it's her new job that has given her the confidence to let go

of

Post by Brian
a lousy marriage. Either way, she is very close to the brink--once the

heart

Post by Brian
goes cold, it is a long, rough road to rekindle it.
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

Maybe she's looking for someone who acts like a man. Who takes
responsibility for his actions and attempts to change.

-Tony

[Brian]

Post by Tony Miller
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:08:11 -0600, Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd take a
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.
Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is

enough

Post by Brian
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I honestly

can't

Post by Brian
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

You've "not gotten along well for years"? Did you guys try to do anything
about that?
<Kathy once again shakes her head in amazement that someone could be
cruising along in a mediocre relationship for years and then get surprised
when their partner finally gives up on it>
I went back and re-read your first post, by the way. The first paragraph
My faults: I am a lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained.
Her faults: she gets irritated with my laziness, lack of motivation, etc.
etc.
It is easier for me to learn to accept her lack of patience than to try to
work on myself. I have accepted her flaws, why can't she accept mine?
I have been so lazy, unmotivated, etc., during our marriage that it makes
her scream, but I didn't care enough to stop it. Now she's being cold and

it

Post by Brian
makes me cry. Why doesn't she stop it?
Now, others could be right and she's found a better model. But, there's

some

Post by Brian
chance that it's her new job that has given her the confidence to let go

of

Post by Brian
a lousy marriage. Either way, she is very close to the brink--once the

heart

Post by Brian
goes cold, it is a long, rough road to rekindle it.
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

Maybe she's looking for someone who acts like a man. Who takes
responsibility for his actions and attempts to change.

This has nothing to do with the "crying" part because I don't normally do
it, but yes, you may be right. I have been lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and
scatterbrained. And I have not changed my "ways" after promising many times
over the years but you know what, she hasn't changed either.

And she does say I need to "be a man" but never backs it up with what that
means.

[Whisper]

I suggest you start working on yourself..and stop using her lack of "change"
as an excuse..

sounds to me like she is changing now..and you may be getting left in the
dust...


Kass

Post by Brian

Post by Tony Miller
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:08:11 -0600, Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
Well, we have no kids and sex is the furthest from my mind..I'd

take

Post by Brian
a

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
handshake at this point..I am currently her roommate.
Though we've not gotten along WELL for years, I wonder if 2 weeks is

enough

Post by Brian
time to give her through this "spell" she is going through. I

honestly

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
can't

Post by Brian
take it anymore but I also don't want to throw it all away.

You've "not gotten along well for years"? Did you guys try to do

anything

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
about that?
<Kathy once again shakes her head in amazement that someone could be
cruising along in a mediocre relationship for years and then get

surprised

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
when their partner finally gives up on it>
I went back and re-read your first post, by the way. The first

paragraph

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
My faults: I am a lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained.
Her faults: she gets irritated with my laziness, lack of motivation,

etc.

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
etc.
It is easier for me to learn to accept her lack of patience than to

try

Post by Brian
to

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
work on myself. I have accepted her flaws, why can't she accept mine?
I have been so lazy, unmotivated, etc., during our marriage that it

makes

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
her scream, but I didn't care enough to stop it. Now she's being cold

and

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
it

Post by Brian
makes me cry. Why doesn't she stop it?
Now, others could be right and she's found a better model. But, there's

some

Post by Brian
chance that it's her new job that has given her the confidence to let

go

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Brian
of

Post by Brian
a lousy marriage. Either way, she is very close to the brink--once the

heart

Post by Brian
goes cold, it is a long, rough road to rekindle it.
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

Maybe she's looking for someone who acts like a man. Who takes
responsibility for his actions and attempts to change.

This has nothing to do with the "crying" part because I don't normally do
it, but yes, you may be right. I have been lazy, unmotivated, forgetful, and
scatterbrained. And I have not changed my "ways" after promising many times
over the years but you know what, she hasn't changed either.
And she does say I need to "be a man" but never backs it up with what that
means.

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Brian

Post by Tony Miller
Maybe she's looking for someone who acts like a man. Who takes
responsibility for his actions and attempts to change.

This has nothing to do with the "crying" part because I don't
normally do it, but yes, you may be right. I have been lazy,
unmotivated, forgetful, and scatterbrained. And I have not changed
my "ways" after promising many times over the years but you know
what, she hasn't changed either.
And she does say I need to "be a man" but never backs it up with what that
means.

Brian, you are getting sidetracked into a useless discussion of whose
fault is it that your wife is leaving.

Maybe it is all your fault. Maybe your wife is clever about suggesting
imaginary faults to you.

That does not change anything related to what you should do, a bit.

And what you should do is first, find out if your wife is fucking
someone, and second, prepare for divorce. It does not seem like you
need to urgently take action. Just be prepared.

Stop crying, take valerian root to calm down and start acting
rationally.

i

[DrLith]

Post by Brian

Post by DrLith
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

I'm not sure I get it, Brian. You say, when she tells you she's not sure she
loves you, that you cry like a baby. And yet here, you seem more concerned
about the debt load, should you divorce her, and who'll get the house, than
you do about losing her.

I feel like I'm swimming upstream here, against all the "she's a rotten wife
who's cheating on you--get out while the gettin's good." And I don't want
you to feel like I'm picking on your mistakes in the relationship, Brian.
We've all got flaws and shortcomings, it's just that we've got "you on the
phone," and not your wife, so it makes more sense to address yours. Whatever
her flaws may be, you can't fix them, only your own. Even *if* she is
schtupping some guy at the gym and for that reason deserves to be
divorced--if you don't take a hard look at how you contributed to the
problems in your marriage, you could well find yourself in the exact same
position 10 or 20 years from now. (If she *is* schtupping the guy at the
gym, which is a very real possibility, your flaws in no way justify that
reprehensible behavior.)

[Tony Miller]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:30:16 -0500, DrLith

Post by DrLith

Post by Brian

Post by DrLith
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

I'm not sure I get it, Brian. You say, when she tells you she's not sure she
loves you, that you cry like a baby. And yet here, you seem more concerned
about the debt load, should you divorce her, and who'll get the house, than
you do about losing her.
I feel like I'm swimming upstream here, against all the "she's a rotten wife
who's cheating on you--get out while the gettin's good." And I don't want
you to feel like I'm picking on your mistakes in the relationship, Brian.

Well I'm swimming with you. I have made a suggestion, and I have heard
all the shills for the divorce lawyers say: "save your money and spend it
on the next babe".

Post by DrLith
We've all got flaws and shortcomings, it's just that we've got "you on the
phone," and not your wife, so it makes more sense to address yours. Whatever
her flaws may be, you can't fix them, only your own. Even *if* she is
schtupping some guy at the gym and for that reason deserves to be
divorced--if you don't take a hard look at how you contributed to the
problems in your marriage, you could well find yourself in the exact same
position 10 or 20 years from now. (If she *is* schtupping the guy at the
gym, which is a very real possibility, your flaws in no way justify that
reprehensible behavior.)

But the big questions is, do they both want to work hard at saving their
marriage. If the answer is yes for both, it'll take a lot of hard work
and some compromise. If the answer is no for *either*, then saving the
marriage is not in the cards.

-Tony

[Ignoramus11065]

Post by Tony Miller
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:30:16 -0500, DrLith

Post by DrLith

Post by Brian

Post by DrLith
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

I'm not sure I get it, Brian. You say, when she tells you she's not sure she
loves you, that you cry like a baby. And yet here, you seem more concerned
about the debt load, should you divorce her, and who'll get the house, than
you do about losing her.
I feel like I'm swimming upstream here, against all the "she's a rotten wife
who's cheating on you--get out while the gettin's good." And I don't want
you to feel like I'm picking on your mistakes in the relationship, Brian.

Well I'm swimming with you. I have made a suggestion, and I have heard
all the shills for the divorce lawyers say: "save your money and spend it
on the next babe".

Are you saying that wasting money on retrouvaille would be a good idea
for the OP? It may be a good idea for some, but it is clear that in
his case, first, it is not likely that the wife will agree, and
second, that the situation has deteriorated well past being able to be
influenced by 2 week retreats etc.

Post by Tony Miller

Post by DrLith
We've all got flaws and shortcomings, it's just that we've got "you on the
phone," and not your wife, so it makes more sense to address yours. Whatever
her flaws may be, you can't fix them, only your own. Even *if* she is
schtupping some guy at the gym and for that reason deserves to be
divorced--if you don't take a hard look at how you contributed to the
problems in your marriage, you could well find yourself in the exact same
position 10 or 20 years from now. (If she *is* schtupping the guy at the
gym, which is a very real possibility, your flaws in no way justify that
reprehensible behavior.)

But the big questions is, do they both want to work hard at saving their
marriage. If the answer is yes for both, it'll take a lot of hard work
and some compromise. If the answer is no for *either*, then saving the
marriage is not in the cards.

If one person does not want to be married, that's enough to end the
marriage legally and practically!

i

[Tony Miller]

On 3 Dec 2003 15:14:13 GMT, Ignoramus11065

Post by Ignoramus11065

Post by Tony Miller
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:30:16 -0500, DrLith

Post by DrLith

Post by Brian

Post by DrLith
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

I'm not sure I get it, Brian. You say, when she tells you she's not sure she
loves you, that you cry like a baby. And yet here, you seem more concerned
about the debt load, should you divorce her, and who'll get the house, than
you do about losing her.
I feel like I'm swimming upstream here, against all the "she's a rotten wife
who's cheating on you--get out while the gettin's good." And I don't want
you to feel like I'm picking on your mistakes in the relationship, Brian.

Well I'm swimming with you. I have made a suggestion, and I have heard
all the shills for the divorce lawyers say: "save your money and spend it
on the next babe".

Are you saying that wasting money on retrouvaille would be a good idea
for the OP? It may be a good idea for some, but it is clear that in
his case, first, it is not likely that the wife will agree, and
second, that the situation has deteriorated well past being able to be
influenced by 2 week retreats etc.

I'm saying that if both value their marriage. Something like retrouvaille
can be infinitely valuable for saving a marriage. Have you ever done
something like retrouvaille or marriage encounter, or is your plan to go
directly to the divorce lawyer?

Unless you have, and were deeply interested in saving your marriage, I
don't think you have a position to comment from.

Post by Ignoramus11065

Post by Tony Miller

Post by DrLith
We've all got flaws and shortcomings, it's just that we've got "you on the
phone," and not your wife, so it makes more sense to address yours. Whatever
her flaws may be, you can't fix them, only your own. Even *if* she is
schtupping some guy at the gym and for that reason deserves to be
divorced--if you don't take a hard look at how you contributed to the
problems in your marriage, you could well find yourself in the exact same
position 10 or 20 years from now. (If she *is* schtupping the guy at the
gym, which is a very real possibility, your flaws in no way justify that
reprehensible behavior.)

But the big questions is, do they both want to work hard at saving their
marriage. If the answer is yes for both, it'll take a lot of hard work
and some compromise. If the answer is no for *either*, then saving the
marriage is not in the cards.

If one person does not want to be married, that's enough to end the
marriage legally and practically!

You'll find no argument from me, but I don't think this has been
determined concretely. I don't believe Brian specifically asked his wife
to try retrouvaille with him.

-Tony

[Ignoramus11065]

Post by Tony Miller
On 3 Dec 2003 15:14:13 GMT, Ignoramus11065

Post by Ignoramus11065

Post by Tony Miller
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:30:16 -0500, DrLith

Post by DrLith

Post by Brian

Post by DrLith
How do you respond when she tells you she's not sure if she loves you?

How do I respond? (swallowing my pride)...I cry like a baby.

I'm not sure I get it, Brian. You say, when she tells you she's not sure she
loves you, that you cry like a baby. And yet here, you seem more concerned
about the debt load, should you divorce her, and who'll get the house, than
you do about losing her.
I feel like I'm swimming upstream here, against all the "she's a rotten wife
who's cheating on you--get out while the gettin's good." And I don't want
you to feel like I'm picking on your mistakes in the relationship, Brian.

Well I'm swimming with you. I have made a suggestion, and I have heard
all the shills for the divorce lawyers say: "save your money and spend it
on the next babe".

Are you saying that wasting money on retrouvaille would be a good idea
for the OP? It may be a good idea for some, but it is clear that in
his case, first, it is not likely that the wife will agree, and
second, that the situation has deteriorated well past being able to be
influenced by 2 week retreats etc.

I'm saying that if both value their marriage.

the OP made abundantly clear that at least his wife does not value the
marriage.

It seems, also, that even the OP had little interest in keeping a good
marriage.

Post by Tony Miller
Something like retrouvaille can be infinitely valuable for saving a
marriage.

No doubt! But not in thet specific case.

Post by Tony Miller
Have you ever done something like retrouvaille or marriage
encounter, or is your plan to go directly to the divorce lawyer?

I plan to keep a decent marriage...

I have not done any retrouvaille etc because I did not feel that the
rational expectation of our gain was more than the cost.

At this point, I do not even have a bad marriage.

Post by Tony Miller
Unless you have, and were deeply interested in saving your marriage, I
don't think you have a position to comment from.

I think that it was obvious that his wife was disinterested in the
marriage.

Post by Tony Miller

Post by Ignoramus11065

Post by Tony Miller
But the big questions is, do they both want to work hard at saving their
marriage. If the answer is yes for both, it'll take a lot of hard work
and some compromise. If the answer is no for *either*, then saving the
marriage is not in the cards.

If one person does not want to be married, that's enough to end the
marriage legally and practically!

You'll find no argument from me, but I don't think this has been
determined concretely. I don't believe Brian specifically asked his wife
to try retrouvaille with him.

what would be the point of it at this point? To convince her that it
would be better for her to stay married and that whatever complaints
she has about Brian, can be rectified? Do you believe that she can be
convinced of that?

i

[n***@nowhere.com]

Post by Brian
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?

She wants some strange cock. Tell her she can fuck anyone she wants
as long as she does it in your bed and lets you watch.

[Rarin Horse]

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?

No. You choose your options over the things you control.

Post by Brian
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?

No. But on the other hand, you don't have to, either.

Post by Brian
What it really going on in her head?

Obviously, a lot goes on in everyone's head. What's probably going on in her
head, is she's bored and likes the excitement of change, romance etc. In a
sense, it's nothing personal. Monogamy is boring sometimes; even the best guy in
the world would bore her if she was with him 8 years. People usually assume an
affair means divorce, but it need not mean that. It could just mean a marital
holiday. Try and be more specific about what you want, and then find out what's
going on in her head.

If you want love, either she loves you (and it's not showing much) or she
doesn't. Let's suppose she doesn't. Does that mean the marriage is over? If you
define marriage by love, then it would indicate divorce. But if you define
marriage by commitment, it means you are committed to going through a period in
which she doesn't feel or show love for you.

If she's having an affair, either it's acceptable to you, or it's not, or it is
on conditions. If it's not acceptable to you, that's the end of the matter,
isn't it? No need for further talk, it's not acceptable, and so you do whatever
is appropriate.

If it is acceptable, it's either acceptable as is, or on conditions. You might
find that it was okay for her to have time out, on condition that you could have
the same license; maybe she would agree.

Post by Brian
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.

The problem with defining marriage as being about love, is that love goes up and
down. Shit happens. Sometimes we don't feel love, simple as that. But if you
define marriage as commitment, it's theoretically possible to agree on different
activities, while keeping the same commitment. But it doesn't sound like it's
happening in your case!

I mean, if it's nto acceptable to you, it's not acceptable. But you don't have
to divorce. You could be understanding and so, go right ahead, have an affair,
enjoy yourself, don't believe that it necessarily challenges the marriage,
because it doesn't, and I'll do the same. But it doesn't look like that is going
to happen!

Post by Brian
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

[Shashay Doofray]

Post by Rarin Horse
Obviously, a lot goes on in everyone's head. What's probably going on in her
head, is she's bored and likes the excitement of change, romance etc. In a
sense, it's nothing personal. Monogamy is boring sometimes; even the best guy in
the world would bore her if she was with him 8 years.

It doesn't have to be boring. Only when expectations are unrealistic do
people get bored.

SD

[Tina]

Where to begin?

Well, regarding your time limit - you can't make someone respond to
you on your timeline. Pushing her will only make her dig in her heels
and become more stubborn. (I can say this because I'm a woman and I
would not like to be pushed to answer something that perhaps I really
have no answer for at the moment)

Her behavior? Yup, it sure looks suspicious. But, previous to this,
did you trust your wife? Has she ever given you any reason to believe
she was fooling around - or was she a flirt? If she has never given
you a reason to doubt her, continue to believe in her now.

Now, how about your behavior..... why don't you start going out with
the boys - or doing something for youself on the days she's gone.
Maybe when she sees that you are not going to be demanding about her
nights out because you're going to go out too - she may decide that
she wants spend more time with you. Try this for a week or two and
then maybe suggest that you go on a "date". Plan a couple of things
you know she likes to do (dancing, dinner at a nice restaurant, maybe
a concert or go to a bar with live music, etc) and let her choose.

Tina

[Brian]

Tina..that's good advice..more so than some of the "trolls" on here talking
about sex.

My wife is very stubborn and yes, I agree..the more I pursue for answers,
the more is pushes her away..it is Christmas time and I am just feeling a
little out of it. I mean, she has really, really hurt me (I never cry) and
it didn't seem to bother me, so I also think that this may be beyond hope.

Post by Tina
Where to begin?
Well, regarding your time limit - you can't make someone respond to
you on your timeline. Pushing her will only make her dig in her heels
and become more stubborn. (I can say this because I'm a woman and I
would not like to be pushed to answer something that perhaps I really
have no answer for at the moment)
Her behavior? Yup, it sure looks suspicious. But, previous to this,
did you trust your wife? Has she ever given you any reason to believe
she was fooling around - or was she a flirt? If she has never given
you a reason to doubt her, continue to believe in her now.
Now, how about your behavior..... why don't you start going out with
the boys - or doing something for youself on the days she's gone.
Maybe when she sees that you are not going to be demanding about her
nights out because you're going to go out too - she may decide that
she wants spend more time with you. Try this for a week or two and
then maybe suggest that you go on a "date". Plan a couple of things
you know she likes to do (dancing, dinner at a nice restaurant, maybe
a concert or go to a bar with live music, etc) and let her choose.
Tina

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Brian
Tina..that's good advice..more so than some of the "trolls" on here talking
about sex.

Which trolls are you referring to?

Post by Brian
My wife is very stubborn and yes, I agree..the more I pursue for
answers, the more is pushes her away..it is Christmas time and I am
just feeling a little out of it. I mean, she has really, really hurt
me (I never cry) and it didn't seem to bother me, so I also think
that this may be beyond hope.

Which is what I told you, this is likely beyond hope, and then made a
logical conclusion that the retrouvaille money would be better spent
banging some hot babe when your marriage is terminated.

Let's suppose for a minute that after 8 years of living with you, your
wife is now certain that her marriage was a mistake that needs to be
rectified. If two weeks at some retrouvaille retreat could change her
opinion, then she is a scatterbrain who cannot make rational
decisions.

Note that I am not making any conclusion that the current remoteness
of your wife is her fault and not yours. Who knows what happened in
your marriage. All I am telling you really, is to be prepared. Also,
if you see a sudden change of heart and desire to reconcile with you,
that could be her having been dumped by her new love interest. That's
why I suggested that you keep yourself informed as to what is
happening in her life.

There is a very small chance that he bad attitude is not a result of
her cheating. You owe yourself to find it out for sure.

i

[JFK]

On 2 Dec 2003 14:04:15 GMT, Ignoramus29143

Post by Ignoramus29143

Post by Brian
Tina..that's good advice..more so than some of the "trolls" on here talking
about sex.

Which trolls are you referring to?

Brian is one of those deluded morons who classifies all who tell him
what he doesn't want to hear (i.e., the truth) as trolls.

Ah, the irony. Brian is home crying on usenet, his wife is out
sucking cock, and those who give it to him straight are "trolls".

I almost felt sorry for you Brian, until I realized that the reason
your wife is out getting screwed by other guys is that YOU are an
UNMITIGATED PUSSY!

JFK

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by JFK
On 2 Dec 2003 14:04:15 GMT, Ignoramus29143

Post by Ignoramus29143

Post by Brian
Tina..that's good advice..more so than some of the "trolls" on here talking
about sex.

Which trolls are you referring to?

Brian is one of those deluded morons who classifies all who tell him
what he doesn't want to hear (i.e., the truth) as trolls.

What I find ironic is that he says that trolls "talk about sex", and
yet it was he complaining here that he is not getting any, talking
about sex at length.

Is talking about sex in a marriage newsgroup now a sign of a troll???

Post by JFK
Ah, the irony. Brian is home crying on usenet, his wife is out
sucking cock, and those who give it to him straight are "trolls".
I almost felt sorry for you Brian, until I realized that the reason
your wife is out getting screwed by other guys is that YOU are an
UNMITIGATED PUSSY!

I dunno, he seems like he has reasons to be upset, but my advice was
of very high quality. Use a condom, don't sire children, be prepared
for a divorce action, be open to a small chance that his wife is not
cheating but something else is going on. Save money and eschew
retrouvaille etc, as his wife likely already made up his mind and he
will need the $$ as a single, or, if they reconcile, as a married
couple. Wasting it on retrouvaille _in his situation_ is unwise.

Is that bad advice?

i

[Ari]

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

Hi, I am young and have been divorced for, hmm lets see, about 2
years. I can tell you this much, do not think that having children
will fix the issues you currently face, nor will a new job or car.
Personally I would try to find a good marriage counseler, not someone
religiously affilated and see if you guys can work out your issues.

You have spent 8 years together yet there seems to be some pretty
steep walls that have been built up around you both. In my opinion
you need to find out why those walls went up in the first place and
start tearing them down bit by bit. That will definately take longer
than one week. Also keep in mind that your wife might not be ready to
talk to you about all these issues after 8 years of penting them up.
A third party like a counseler may have better luck. In the end, when
as a last resort, divorce is always an option. Remember that it
should always be a last resort because unfortunately there is no such
thing as a perfect marriage and sometimes we can regret throwing an
old one away after we see that many of those issues pop right back up
again in another one.

Not to say that you do not have some unique problems to deal with, her
not opening up to you and only talking business is a good example of
one. Thing is, something either made her clam up like that or she was
like that from the begining. If it always was like that then the old
addage "Dont expect your partner to change after marriage" applies.
Try to be understanding, seek the necessary help and if in the end you
can not live with what the results are then wash your hands of it
knowing you did everything you could to save the marrige.

Just my 2 cents. Might be a bit disjointed as it is late here but
hope it helps some.

[Shashay Doofray]

Post by Ari

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

Hi, I am young and have been divorced for, hmm lets see, about 2
years. I can tell you this much, do not think that having children
will fix the issues you currently face, nor will a new job or car.
Personally I would try to find a good marriage counseler, not someone
religiously affilated and see if you guys can work out your issues.
You have spent 8 years together yet there seems to be some pretty
steep walls that have been built up around you both. In my opinion
you need to find out why those walls went up in the first place and
start tearing them down bit by bit. That will definately take longer
than one week. Also keep in mind that your wife might not be ready to
talk to you about all these issues after 8 years of penting them up.
A third party like a counseler may have better luck. In the end, when
as a last resort, divorce is always an option. Remember that it
should always be a last resort because unfortunately there is no such
thing as a perfect marriage and sometimes we can regret throwing an
old one away after we see that many of those issues pop right back up
again in another one.
Not to say that you do not have some unique problems to deal with, her
not opening up to you and only talking business is a good example of
one. Thing is, something either made her clam up like that or she was
like that from the begining. If it always was like that then the old
addage "Dont expect your partner to change after marriage" applies.
Try to be understanding, seek the necessary help and if in the end you
can not live with what the results are then wash your hands of it
knowing you did everything you could to save the marrige.
Just my 2 cents. Might be a bit disjointed as it is late here but
hope it helps some.

Just FYI, there is no such word as penting.
SD

[Brian]

Hi Ari,

Well, she has refused counseling in the past and I am sure she will now.

We aren't having kids to fix problems but you have a point..we've always
"covered up" our problems, mainly because she refuses to face or admit them.
She has never communicated well with me.

Well, I could most certainly give her more time but I honestly don't think
how much longer I can put up with her not wanting to hug or kiss or just a
wife. Or how many 3:00 AM nights I can take. I do want her to have fun and
maybe rediscover herself, but my philosophy is that if she wants to continue
to live under the same roof, then she needs to be a wife.

Post by Ari

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

Hi, I am young and have been divorced for, hmm lets see, about 2
years. I can tell you this much, do not think that having children
will fix the issues you currently face, nor will a new job or car.
Personally I would try to find a good marriage counseler, not someone
religiously affilated and see if you guys can work out your issues.
You have spent 8 years together yet there seems to be some pretty
steep walls that have been built up around you both. In my opinion
you need to find out why those walls went up in the first place and
start tearing them down bit by bit. That will definately take longer
than one week. Also keep in mind that your wife might not be ready to
talk to you about all these issues after 8 years of penting them up.
A third party like a counseler may have better luck. In the end, when
as a last resort, divorce is always an option. Remember that it
should always be a last resort because unfortunately there is no such
thing as a perfect marriage and sometimes we can regret throwing an
old one away after we see that many of those issues pop right back up
again in another one.
Not to say that you do not have some unique problems to deal with, her
not opening up to you and only talking business is a good example of
one. Thing is, something either made her clam up like that or she was
like that from the begining. If it always was like that then the old
addage "Dont expect your partner to change after marriage" applies.
Try to be understanding, seek the necessary help and if in the end you
can not live with what the results are then wash your hands of it
knowing you did everything you could to save the marrige.
Just my 2 cents. Might be a bit disjointed as it is late here but
hope it helps some.

[Amos B. Moses]

Brian,
Reading more of your posts I got this to say: Keep your hands clean,
don't screw around, lie or hurt your wife - It'll make dealing with the
divorce harder. This woman doesn't love you, she seems to immature for this.
I don't think she'd ever really love anyone, she uses people and she's done
with you.

These idiots who think letting your wife have an extra-marital affair to
"get it out of her system" (or however they rationalize it) ought to have
their head examined. This woman sounds immature and selfish, she's done
using you and she's looking for the next bigger and better deal. You won't
find happiness being around her and she never will. My experience with such
people is that they are not capable of loving anyone and always focus on
what's wrong.

Your young. When I got divorced I was 27 years old. I thought it was the end
of the world and ended up living with my mother for two years. Later I met
the woman who is presently my wife. I was much wiser and more focused on
goals. We were both older as well. I've been married now for almost ten
years. She still hugs me, says she loves me and always includes me in her
life. I'm happy. Your going to meet someone better, you seem like a good
person because you care about your marriage - you just need to hook up with
someone else who can as well.

Good Luck.

[Brian]

Amos...I just pray for a civil split if it comes to it..if she wants her
space then I will support her...to avoid more debt problems, I would hope
she would work with me and lawyers to make it go smoothly but from what I
hear about most divorces are not this neat. Or are there some "neat" ones?

Post by Amos B. Moses
Brian,
Reading more of your posts I got this to say: Keep your hands clean,
don't screw around, lie or hurt your wife - It'll make dealing with the
divorce harder. This woman doesn't love you, she seems to immature for this.
I don't think she'd ever really love anyone, she uses people and she's done
with you.
These idiots who think letting your wife have an extra-marital affair to
"get it out of her system" (or however they rationalize it) ought to have
their head examined. This woman sounds immature and selfish, she's done
using you and she's looking for the next bigger and better deal. You won't
find happiness being around her and she never will. My experience with such
people is that they are not capable of loving anyone and always focus on
what's wrong.
Your young. When I got divorced I was 27 years old. I thought it was the end
of the world and ended up living with my mother for two years. Later I met
the woman who is presently my wife. I was much wiser and more focused on
goals. We were both older as well. I've been married now for almost ten
years. She still hugs me, says she loves me and always includes me in her
life. I'm happy. Your going to meet someone better, you seem like a good
person because you care about your marriage - you just need to hook up with
someone else who can as well.
Good Luck.

[Amos B. Moses]

If it gets ugly, it will be when someone trys to get the upper hand. A good
lawyer will help you. You will not pay alimony since she has a job. If I
were you, I'd sell the house, and just divide everything and get this behind
you as fast as possible.

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Amos B. Moses
If it gets ugly, it will be when someone trys to get the upper
hand. A good lawyer will help you. You will not pay alimony since
she has a job.

this is not necessarily true Amos.

Post by Amos B. Moses
If I were you, I'd sell the house, and just divide
everything and get this behind you as fast as possible.

[Amos B. Moses]

Post by Ignoramus29143
this is not necessarily true Amos.

I stand corrected - are you from California? You can fight this and if she
goes for alimony, I'd counter-sue for it as well.Try playing nice always
first. Some states have what is called "communal property" laws. Check this
out with your lawyer.

Post by Ignoramus29143
it has a lien (consolidation loan) on it, so to avoid bankruptcy, someone
will need to keep it and pay on it..that would be good for BOTH parties of
one person kept it and paid on it. Right?

A lawyer question. This home belongs to both of you. Don't move out until
legal arrangments are made.

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Ignoramus29143
this is not necessarily true Amos.

I stand corrected - are you from California?

No, thankfully I am not in California.

Post by Amos B. Moses
You can fight this and if she goes for alimony, I'd counter-sue for
it as well.Try playing nice always first. Some states have what is
called "communal property" laws. Check this out with your lawyer.

Post by Ignoramus29143
it has a lien (consolidation loan) on it, so to avoid bankruptcy, someone
will need to keep it and pay on it..that would be good for BOTH parties of
one person kept it and paid on it. Right?

A lawyer question. This home belongs to both of you. Don't move out until
legal arrangments are made.

[Brian]

Well, Amos..she opened up some more last night and we had a civil
conversation..she is STRONGLY considering a split but she thinks (and while
not being mean about this) she can get the house AND alimony. This is said
after we both agreed if that if a split were to proceed, that we would still
live together and work it out maturely. Just as a note, she makes in the low
30's and I make in the mid 40's..I don't think that qualifies her for
alimony. And isn't alimony pretty much a thing of the past.

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Ignoramus29143
this is not necessarily true Amos.

I stand corrected - are you from California? You can fight this and if she
goes for alimony, I'd counter-sue for it as well.Try playing nice always
first. Some states have what is called "communal property" laws. Check this
out with your lawyer.

Post by Ignoramus29143
it has a lien (consolidation loan) on it, so to avoid bankruptcy, someone
will need to keep it and pay on it..that would be good for BOTH parties of
one person kept it and paid on it. Right?

A lawyer question. This home belongs to both of you. Don't move out until
legal arrangments are made.

[Ignoramus11065]

Post by Brian
Well, Amos..she opened up some more last night and we had a civil
conversation..she is STRONGLY considering a split but she thinks (and while
not being mean about this) she can get the house AND alimony. This is said
after we both agreed if that if a split were to proceed, that we would still
live together and work it out maturely. Just as a note, she makes in the low
30's and I make in the mid 40's..I don't think that qualifies her for
alimony. And isn't alimony pretty much a thing of the past.

It does not appear as though she will get alimony. At this point you
need to retain an attorney, unfortunately, and while you can still
sort out your emotional issues, you need to get your act in order as
though you did not have any emotional issues.

i

Post by Brian

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Ignoramus29143
this is not necessarily true Amos.

I stand corrected - are you from California? You can fight this and if she
goes for alimony, I'd counter-sue for it as well.Try playing nice always
first. Some states have what is called "communal property" laws. Check

this

Post by Amos B. Moses
out with your lawyer.

Post by Ignoramus29143
it has a lien (consolidation loan) on it, so to avoid bankruptcy, someone
will need to keep it and pay on it..that would be good for BOTH parties

of

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Ignoramus29143
one person kept it and paid on it. Right?

A lawyer question. This home belongs to both of you. Don't move out until
legal arrangments are made.

[Amos B. Moses]

Post by Brian
she can get the house AND alimony.

It's not the 1950's anymore, remember that...

Alimony is usually awarded when one party claims sacrificing earning
potential for the marriage - ie staying at home and raising kids instead of
getting a job. Some states have laws that are automatic. Do not agree to any
"no-fault" divorce unless a clause is contained forsaking alimony by both
parties. Get a lawyer and get a seperation agreement.

If it starts to get ugly, insist that she move out of the house. Counter sue
for alimony if need be, counter sue for the house as well. Everything she
accuses you of, you accuse her of. This will neutralize any outrageous
accusations she makes. Don't be shrill but don't let her get the upper hand.
She is not making much money, she is not going to want a long expensive
divorce. Let her know that you will fight, she's betting you won't.

Stop talking to her, everything you say will be twisted around and used
against you. Reconciliation is just a tactic at this point, don't fall for
it. Don't sign anything and get all your important papers - car
registrations, legal documents and copies of bills and put them in a strong
box at work. They may be valuable later.

How do I know to do all this? It was all done to me and many divorced men I
know from the group I belong to. Make up your mind this marriage is over and
treat it like a bad business deal you want to get out of - fairly.

[Brian]

Since I know what she is "considering" now, the ball is in her court for a
while longer. However, if she continues this "removed" feelings toward me
and still hasn't called a lawyer, I will make the first move them.

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Brian
she can get the house AND alimony.

It's not the 1950's anymore, remember that...
Alimony is usually awarded when one party claims sacrificing earning
potential for the marriage - ie staying at home and raising kids instead of
getting a job. Some states have laws that are automatic. Do not agree to any
"no-fault" divorce unless a clause is contained forsaking alimony by both
parties. Get a lawyer and get a seperation agreement.
If it starts to get ugly, insist that she move out of the house. Counter sue
for alimony if need be, counter sue for the house as well. Everything she
accuses you of, you accuse her of. This will neutralize any outrageous
accusations she makes. Don't be shrill but don't let her get the upper hand.
She is not making much money, she is not going to want a long expensive
divorce. Let her know that you will fight, she's betting you won't.
Stop talking to her, everything you say will be twisted around and used
against you. Reconciliation is just a tactic at this point, don't fall for
it. Don't sign anything and get all your important papers - car
registrations, legal documents and copies of bills and put them in a strong
box at work. They may be valuable later.
How do I know to do all this? It was all done to me and many divorced men I
know from the group I belong to. Make up your mind this marriage is over and
treat it like a bad business deal you want to get out of - fairly.

[Chrys]

Post by Brian
Well, Amos..she opened up some more last night and we had a civil
conversation..she is STRONGLY considering a split but she thinks (and while
not being mean about this) she can get the house AND alimony. This is said
after we both agreed if that if a split were to proceed, that we would still
live together and work it out maturely. Just as a note, she makes in the low
30's and I make in the mid 40's..I don't think that qualifies her for
alimony. And isn't alimony pretty much a thing of the past.

It depends mostly on where you live, and the laws in your area would
determine the amount (if any) and length of time it would be awarded based
on your incomes, financial needs, and the length of the marriage. Where
do you live? It should be a simple matter to look up the rules in your
area, but you really should be talking to a lawyer. It doesn't sound at
all like she wants to work things out maturely if she's expecting you to
pay her free money. Also forget any ideas of living together, there's no
way that would ever work out.

[Whisper]

Never say never.. my X and I lived together for 4 months after I filed for
divorce...

Kass

Post by Chrys

Post by Brian
Well, Amos..she opened up some more last night and we had a civil
conversation..she is STRONGLY considering a split but she thinks (and

while

Post by Brian
not being mean about this) she can get the house AND alimony. This is

said

Post by Brian
after we both agreed if that if a split were to proceed, that we would

still

Post by Brian
live together and work it out maturely. Just as a note, she makes in the

low

Post by Brian
30's and I make in the mid 40's..I don't think that qualifies her for
alimony. And isn't alimony pretty much a thing of the past.

It depends mostly on where you live, and the laws in your area would
determine the amount (if any) and length of time it would be awarded based
on your incomes, financial needs, and the length of the marriage. Where
do you live? It should be a simple matter to look up the rules in your
area, but you really should be talking to a lawyer. It doesn't sound at
all like she wants to work things out maturely if she's expecting you to
pay her free money. Also forget any ideas of living together, there's no
way that would ever work out.

[Brian]

Well, then the first thing will be Bankruptcy if we lived apart while
divorcing...we make good money but still live somewhat paycheck to paycheck.

Post by Chrys

Post by Brian
Well, Amos..she opened up some more last night and we had a civil
conversation..she is STRONGLY considering a split but she thinks (and

while

Post by Brian
not being mean about this) she can get the house AND alimony. This is

said

Post by Brian
after we both agreed if that if a split were to proceed, that we would

still

Post by Brian
live together and work it out maturely. Just as a note, she makes in the

low

Post by Brian
30's and I make in the mid 40's..I don't think that qualifies her for
alimony. And isn't alimony pretty much a thing of the past.

It depends mostly on where you live, and the laws in your area would
determine the amount (if any) and length of time it would be awarded based
on your incomes, financial needs, and the length of the marriage. Where
do you live? It should be a simple matter to look up the rules in your
area, but you really should be talking to a lawyer. It doesn't sound at
all like she wants to work things out maturely if she's expecting you to
pay her free money. Also forget any ideas of living together, there's no
way that would ever work out.

[Brian]

it has a lien (consolidation loan) on it, so to avoid bankruptcy, someone
will need to keep it and pay on it..that would be good for BOTH parties of
one person kept it and paid on it. Right?

Post by Amos B. Moses
If it gets ugly, it will be when someone trys to get the upper hand. A good
lawyer will help you. You will not pay alimony since she has a job. If I
were you, I'd sell the house, and just divide everything and get this behind
you as fast as possible.

[Tina]

Post by Brian
Well, she has refused counseling in the past and I am sure she will now.
We aren't having kids to fix problems but you have a point..we've always
"covered up" our problems, mainly because she refuses to face or admit them.
She has never communicated well with me.
Well, I could most certainly give her more time but I honestly don't think
how much longer I can put up with her not wanting to hug or kiss or just a
wife. Or how many 3:00 AM nights I can take. I do want her to have fun and
maybe rediscover herself, but my philosophy is that if she wants to continue
to live under the same roof, then she needs to be a wife.

Hi Again Brian,

I see some warnings here. Counseling? My STBX also refused
counseling. Covering Up problems? Also a very familiar "non-coping"
mechanism with my STBX. His though process went something like this -
"if I ignore the problem long enough it will go away". Being more
that a roomate? Also been there. My STBX has slept on the couch for
years.

I would love to be able to give you some encouraging advice here, but
these problems are screaming "headed for divorce" to me.

The only thing I think you can do is to go to your wife, tell her
you're concerned about the way your marriage has been lately, and let
her know that without some improvements in the relationship that you
feel the next step will be separation and/or divorce.

Of course, before you do this, be absolutely certain that you want to
go ahead with either the separation or divorce because, as sad as it
sounds, I believe that is where you going to be headed.

Sorry I can't give you more hopeful advice. You're in my prayers,
Brian.

Tina

[Brian]

Tina..I did that last night (talked with wife)...it was a non-yelling,
mature talk...I asked her if she wanted counseling and she said no because
it may make me look like the "victim" and I told her she was WAY
wrong....she basically is considering a divorce and want to do it civilly
and non-vengeful. However, she thinks she could get alimony and the
house...that is kind of crazy I believe. She has a full time (and high
paying) job so I don't think she would qualify for it..plus, she is the
wanting "space", not me.

So, for now, I am waiting for her to either choose counseling or a divorce.
I feel LOTS better know that I know where I stand with her but I am not sure
how much longer I can stand her being "removed" from me while she considers
a divorce. I may have to make the move.

Post by Tina

Post by Brian
Well, she has refused counseling in the past and I am sure she will now.
We aren't having kids to fix problems but you have a point..we've always
"covered up" our problems, mainly because she refuses to face or admit them.
She has never communicated well with me.
Well, I could most certainly give her more time but I honestly don't think
how much longer I can put up with her not wanting to hug or kiss or just a
wife. Or how many 3:00 AM nights I can take. I do want her to have fun and
maybe rediscover herself, but my philosophy is that if she wants to continue
to live under the same roof, then she needs to be a wife.

Hi Again Brian,
I see some warnings here. Counseling? My STBX also refused
counseling. Covering Up problems? Also a very familiar "non-coping"
mechanism with my STBX. His though process went something like this -
"if I ignore the problem long enough it will go away". Being more
that a roomate? Also been there. My STBX has slept on the couch for
years.
I would love to be able to give you some encouraging advice here, but
these problems are screaming "headed for divorce" to me.
The only thing I think you can do is to go to your wife, tell her
you're concerned about the way your marriage has been lately, and let
her know that without some improvements in the relationship that you
feel the next step will be separation and/or divorce.
Of course, before you do this, be absolutely certain that you want to
go ahead with either the separation or divorce because, as sad as it
sounds, I believe that is where you going to be headed.
Sorry I can't give you more hopeful advice. You're in my prayers,
Brian.
Tina

[shinypenny]

Post by Brian
Hi Ari,
Well, she has refused counseling in the past and I am sure she will now.
We aren't having kids to fix problems but you have a point..we've always
"covered up" our problems, mainly because she refuses to face or admit them.
She has never communicated well with me.
Well, I could most certainly give her more time but I honestly don't think
how much longer I can put up with her not wanting to hug or kiss or just a
wife. Or how many 3:00 AM nights I can take. I do want her to have fun and
maybe rediscover herself, but my philosophy is that if she wants to continue
to live under the same roof, then she needs to be a wife.

I don't know if my input is going to be helpful or not, but after
following this thread I'd like to make the observation that your wife
is exhibiting the classic signs of adolescent rebellion.

You say that your wife went straight from her family to your marriage.
I'll go so far as to suggest that it sounds like you have always been
married to the equivalent of a child/teenager. For a marriage to work,
it takes two adults.

If your marriage is ever going to succeed, she's going to have to grow
up. This will require her going through this adolescent rebellion
period. You don't become an adult without going through adolescence.
Sounds to me like she's unknowingly targeted you as if you were her
parent. Whether you want to stick by and endure this stage is
completely up to you. I personally wouldn't blame you for ditching the
situation.

However, if you do want to give the marriage a shot, it would take a
lot of patience and forbearance on your part, and walking a fine line
between expecting her to act mature, without finding yourself falling
into the trap of acting like her parent. That's the worse thing you
could do - it would probably cause her to rebel even further. Sounds
like you're already seeing this: the more you push, the more she
pushes away.

Perhaps you might broach this subject with her - gently - and explain
that you want to be married to an equal, and have no interest in
playing the part of parent to her. You might point out that it seems
the two of you have fallen into that trap, and ask her how she thinks
you might both work yourselves out of it? You might express to her
that you would welcome a change in the roles of your relationship,
particularly if it resulted in a better, healthier relationship as
equal partners. Just as she might think it's no fun to be stuck in the
role of child, tell her you don't enjoy being stuck in the role of
parent.

Is she cheating on you? I have no idea. It's only been 2 weeks, so
maybe not. Maybe it is her new job that's given her confidence and new
wings. Maybe she is tempted but it hasn't gone anywhere yet and you
still may have a chance. But then again, I'm ever the optomist.

jen

[Ignoramus11065]

Very insightful shinypenny. Note though that the teenage rebellion has
an express purpose to become separate from the parent and
independent. To complete this thought into a logical conclusion, the
wife's rebellion may very well drive her into becoming fully separate
from the husband, that is, to divorce.

i

[Brian]

Amen! This sounds like her to a "T"...thanks!

Post by shinypenny

Post by Brian
Hi Ari,
Well, she has refused counseling in the past and I am sure she will now.
We aren't having kids to fix problems but you have a point..we've always
"covered up" our problems, mainly because she refuses to face or admit them.
She has never communicated well with me.
Well, I could most certainly give her more time but I honestly don't think
how much longer I can put up with her not wanting to hug or kiss or just a
wife. Or how many 3:00 AM nights I can take. I do want her to have fun and
maybe rediscover herself, but my philosophy is that if she wants to continue
to live under the same roof, then she needs to be a wife.

I don't know if my input is going to be helpful or not, but after
following this thread I'd like to make the observation that your wife
is exhibiting the classic signs of adolescent rebellion.
You say that your wife went straight from her family to your marriage.
I'll go so far as to suggest that it sounds like you have always been
married to the equivalent of a child/teenager. For a marriage to work,
it takes two adults.
If your marriage is ever going to succeed, she's going to have to grow
up. This will require her going through this adolescent rebellion
period. You don't become an adult without going through adolescence.
Sounds to me like she's unknowingly targeted you as if you were her
parent. Whether you want to stick by and endure this stage is
completely up to you. I personally wouldn't blame you for ditching the
situation.
However, if you do want to give the marriage a shot, it would take a
lot of patience and forbearance on your part, and walking a fine line
between expecting her to act mature, without finding yourself falling
into the trap of acting like her parent. That's the worse thing you
could do - it would probably cause her to rebel even further. Sounds
like you're already seeing this: the more you push, the more she
pushes away.
Perhaps you might broach this subject with her - gently - and explain
that you want to be married to an equal, and have no interest in
playing the part of parent to her. You might point out that it seems
the two of you have fallen into that trap, and ask her how she thinks
you might both work yourselves out of it? You might express to her
that you would welcome a change in the roles of your relationship,
particularly if it resulted in a better, healthier relationship as
equal partners. Just as she might think it's no fun to be stuck in the
role of child, tell her you don't enjoy being stuck in the role of
parent.
Is she cheating on you? I have no idea. It's only been 2 weeks, so
maybe not. Maybe it is her new job that's given her confidence and new
wings. Maybe she is tempted but it hasn't gone anywhere yet and you
still may have a chance. But then again, I'm ever the optomist.
jen

[Shashay Doofray]

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

I hate to be the one to say this, but you have ALL the classic signs of her
cheating on you. But you already knew this didn't you?

Post by Brian
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.

Giggles huh? Gee sure sounds like she's getting a lot of work done doesn't
it? I hope to heck she isn't the head nurse at an ER someplace. Let's face
it, your marriage is seriously ill and you better get to a counselor as soon
as possible if you hope to save it. Be warned, however, if you do, there is
a good possibility that it is going to be "all your fault" and that YOU are
going to have to be the one to change to save it - and even if you do, it
probably isn't going to work anyway. Your wife has to want to save it also,
and it doesn't sound to me like she does.

Get thee to a lawyer, buddy.

SD

[Brian]

Well, the lawyer part scares me. I don't know what to expect. The only thing
I really want is the house..

Let me ask you this..if she gets it, would I be obligated to keep paying on
it?

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a

problem)

Post by Brian
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM

and

Post by Brian
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But

I've

Post by Brian
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

I hate to be the one to say this, but you have ALL the classic signs of her
cheating on you. But you already knew this didn't you?

Post by Brian
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she

seems

Post by Brian
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.

Giggles huh? Gee sure sounds like she's getting a lot of work done doesn't
it? I hope to heck she isn't the head nurse at an ER someplace. Let's face
it, your marriage is seriously ill and you better get to a counselor as soon
as possible if you hope to save it. Be warned, however, if you do, there is
a good possibility that it is going to be "all your fault" and that YOU are
going to have to be the one to change to save it - and even if you do, it
probably isn't going to work anyway. Your wife has to want to save it also,
and it doesn't sound to me like she does.
Get thee to a lawyer, buddy.
SD

[Ignoramus29143]

Post by Brian
Well, the lawyer part scares me. I don't know what to expect. The only thing
I really want is the house..
Let me ask you this..if she gets it, would I be obligated to keep paying on
it?

It depends on how this is settled or decided by the court. Generally,
one of the two things will happen:

1) the house will be sold and proceeds split in some proportion

2) one spouse will keep house but will be required by the court to
refinance and pay another a similar cash amount to buy the other
spouse out.

i

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a

problem)

Post by Brian
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM

and

Post by Brian
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But

I've

Post by Brian
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

I hate to be the one to say this, but you have ALL the classic signs of

her

Post by Brian
cheating on you. But you already knew this didn't you?

Post by Brian
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get

her

Post by Brian

Post by Brian
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she

seems

Post by Brian
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.

Giggles huh? Gee sure sounds like she's getting a lot of work done

doesn't

Post by Brian
it? I hope to heck she isn't the head nurse at an ER someplace. Let's

face

Post by Brian
it, your marriage is seriously ill and you better get to a counselor as

soon

Post by Brian
as possible if you hope to save it. Be warned, however, if you do, there

is

Post by Brian
a good possibility that it is going to be "all your fault" and that YOU

are

Post by Brian
going to have to be the one to change to save it - and even if you do, it
probably isn't going to work anyway. Your wife has to want to save it

also,

Post by Brian
and it doesn't sound to me like she does.
Get thee to a lawyer, buddy.
SD

[Amos B. Moses]

Thank God you don't have kids with this person...The divorce will be
comparatively painless. Split the assets, split the liabilities and
continue on.

[Brian]

So, there will be NO WAY that if she gets the house that I still have to pay
for it? I am willing to give up all just to keep the house..;)

Post by Amos B. Moses
Thank God you don't have kids with this person...The divorce will be
comparatively painless. Split the assets, split the liabilities and
continue on.

[Amos B. Moses]

Post by Brian
So, there will be NO WAY that if she gets the house that I still have to pay
for it? I am willing to give up all just to keep the house..;)

No, Both of you will divide assets and liabilities. The only way she would
have a shot at getting the house is if you DID have kids. You have to talk
it over with a lawyer, lots of ways to skin this cat. If you want the house,
you would have to deal with her for it.

[Tina]

Brian,

I'm glad you're feeling better after your talk with your wife.
However, you may be the one who needs to make the move. In my case, I
waited way too long (years, in fact) for my STBX to make up his mind
about whether to do something about making our marriage better or
divorcing. In our case, we were really emotionally divorced long ago!
Anyway, if your wife is similar in her coping mechanisms to my STBX
then you will be waiting an awfully long time for her to make up her
mind. And during that time, if it's anything like my situation, you
will be careful not to rock the boat, walk on eggshells, try to keep
your anger and sadness and disappointment at bay, all the while
letting your wife do whatever it is that pleases her. (I did this
with my STBX and it made matters even worse! I know now he considered
me weak for staying in a situation not to my liking. - he told me this
himself!)

I finally made my decision and when we started talking about the
financial aspect of divorce, THEN he decided he wanted to stay
married. (He didn't want to give me a dime even though we own a
business and home) Anyway, I had to put my foot down and tell him
that I wasn't going to stay married to him any longer and if it took
getting a barracuda of a lawyer, well, I was prepared to do just that.
After that, we were able to reach an equitable settlement.

Make your move if you're ready. And then, start planning for your new
life.

BTW, let her have the house. Make her buy you out and get a new home
or apt. I think it'd be much easier to move on when you're not living
in a home full of memories. At least that's what I'm doing and I'm
really excited about my new apartment! As for alimony, a lawyer I
consulted told me alimony is pretty much not given for any woman who
has the ability to hold a job and cover her expenses. I wouldn't
worry about her getting alimony.

Good luck, Brian. You're still in my prayers.

Tina

[Brian]

Thanks Tina...she hasn't said anymore about it and I may come back to her in
another week...again, she speaks with me on a friendship level and I think
would remain that way if we go through the divorce while in the same house.
I still do hope for her to come to her sense and she may be a "wife" again
but I think she will still be the same in her other areas and I think my
wounds may take a while to heal.

I will reluctantly tell her within a week or so that if she still feels like
being on her own that we need to make the move immediately (see lawyers).

Post by Amos B. Moses
Brian,
I'm glad you're feeling better after your talk with your wife.
However, you may be the one who needs to make the move. In my case, I
waited way too long (years, in fact) for my STBX to make up his mind
about whether to do something about making our marriage better or
divorcing. In our case, we were really emotionally divorced long ago!
Anyway, if your wife is similar in her coping mechanisms to my STBX
then you will be waiting an awfully long time for her to make up her
mind. And during that time, if it's anything like my situation, you
will be careful not to rock the boat, walk on eggshells, try to keep
your anger and sadness and disappointment at bay, all the while
letting your wife do whatever it is that pleases her. (I did this
with my STBX and it made matters even worse! I know now he considered
me weak for staying in a situation not to my liking. - he told me this
himself!)
I finally made my decision and when we started talking about the
financial aspect of divorce, THEN he decided he wanted to stay
married. (He didn't want to give me a dime even though we own a
business and home) Anyway, I had to put my foot down and tell him
that I wasn't going to stay married to him any longer and if it took
getting a barracuda of a lawyer, well, I was prepared to do just that.
After that, we were able to reach an equitable settlement.
Make your move if you're ready. And then, start planning for your new
life.
BTW, let her have the house. Make her buy you out and get a new home
or apt. I think it'd be much easier to move on when you're not living
in a home full of memories. At least that's what I'm doing and I'm
really excited about my new apartment! As for alimony, a lawyer I
consulted told me alimony is pretty much not given for any woman who
has the ability to hold a job and cover her expenses. I wouldn't
worry about her getting alimony.
Good luck, Brian. You're still in my prayers.
Tina

[Ignoramus24587]

Post by Brian
Thanks Tina...she hasn't said anymore about it and I may come back to her in
another week...again, she speaks with me on a friendship level and I think
would remain that way if we go through the divorce while in the same house.
I still do hope for her to come to her sense and she may be a "wife" again
but I think she will still be the same in her other areas and I think my
wounds may take a while to heal.
I will reluctantly tell her within a week or so that if she still feels like
being on her own that we need to make the move immediately (see lawyers).

Brian, do not be dense.

You need to see a lawyer now.

You do not need to file for divorce now. But you need to see an
attorney just to know where you stand and what you need to be mindful
of.

Chances are high that she already retained a lawyer or at least
consulted with one.

i

[Amos B. Moses]

This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

[Ignoramus24587]

Post by Amos B. Moses
This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

you could be right!

i

[Brian]

Amos..I did discover something yesterday.

She went to the doctor..complaining of not "feeling like herself." I was
hoping for some decent news, even an anti-depressant or something. I asked
her about the visit and she wouldn't tell me..just that it went "fine."

I checked our online drug prescription web site..I was shocked! She took a
birth control injection. I know there are other hormone drugs out there or
even anti-depressants. I was just so hurt by that.

Post by Amos B. Moses
This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

[Ignoramus6098]

So?

What do you plan on doing now?

My advice: go and start looking for a lawyer to talk a little and
figure out what your rights are etc. You do not have to file right
away, however, you need to know where you stand etc. Also make copies
of all important papers, personal mementos etc and store them outside
of your home.

None of the above really means that you "gave up on your marriage", it
just means that you want to be careful.

i

Post by Brian
Amos..I did discover something yesterday.
She went to the doctor..complaining of not "feeling like herself." I was
hoping for some decent news, even an anti-depressant or something. I asked
her about the visit and she wouldn't tell me..just that it went "fine."
I checked our online drug prescription web site..I was shocked! She took a
birth control injection. I know there are other hormone drugs out there or
even anti-depressants. I was just so hurt by that.

Post by Amos B. Moses
This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

[Amos B. Moses]

Post by Ignoramus6098
None of the above really means that you "gave up on your marriage", it
just means that you want to be careful.

Ditto... Brian, your getting sentimental and avoiding the facts. If she's on
birth control it's not for you, expect to get hurt some more and after this
point you have no one to blame but yourself...

[Ignoramus6098]

Post by Amos B. Moses

Post by Ignoramus6098
None of the above really means that you "gave up on your marriage", it
just means that you want to be careful.

Ditto... Brian, your getting sentimental and avoiding the facts. If she's on
birth control it's not for you, expect to get hurt some more and after this
point you have no one to blame but yourself...

I already said that Brian seems to be the kind of person who prefers
to ignore a problem, hoping that it goes away.

i

[Marcus Ulpius Traianus]

Post by Brian
I checked our online drug prescription web site..I was shocked! She took a
birth control injection. I know there are other hormone drugs out there or
even anti-depressants. I was just so hurt by that.

If I've followed the thread correctly, she sure as hell isn't having sex
with you... and the birth control injection means she IS, or is at least
contemplating it, with someone else. Worse, it may mean she's been using
condoms thus far (or failing to, but knows she should) and has decided to
stop using them.

Lawyer. NOW. PI might also be warranted.

If you want to stay married, great, but if you do, stay married knowing
specifically where you stand legally and what your options are.

Post by Brian

Post by Amos B. Moses
This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

[whisper]

IF she wanted to hide the fact that she was taking birth control.. she
probably wouldn't have gone to her Dr.. but to planned Parenthood or
something and paid cash.. so there was no trace..

If she got a Depo-Provera Shot.. BE CAREFUL.. those do nasty things to a
woman's hormones!!! they put you in a chemical menopause.. might see if
this is the first shot or not.. could explain a lot!!!!

I know of several woman who actually had such bad mood swings they got
divorced.. and once they stopped the shots. they were able to reconcile with
their spouse!!

Kass
Who was on Depo.. would NEVER recommend it to anyone!!!

Post by Brian
Amos..I did discover something yesterday.
She went to the doctor..complaining of not "feeling like herself." I was
hoping for some decent news, even an anti-depressant or something. I asked
her about the visit and she wouldn't tell me..just that it went "fine."
I checked our online drug prescription web site..I was shocked! She took a
birth control injection. I know there are other hormone drugs out there or
even anti-depressants. I was just so hurt by that.

Post by Amos B. Moses
This is the "in denial" stage. The wake-up stage is when your served with
papers. It always happens like this.

[Shelley]

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

The worst kind of man to live with apart from an unfaithful one, is one who
doesn't do their share of the chores and pay us (women) enough attention.
It's the aged curse of 'being taken for granted' that kills a lot of
relationships. The problem is a lot of men don't realise how important all
this is until the woman's love dies from neglect, by which time it is too
late.
If the worst does happen, then I hope you will learn from this and make more
of an effort in future relationships. The sad fact is you didn't appreciate
her love when you had it, and maybe it isn't too late to get it back, but it
will take a huge effort from you. Even if she has another man, it needn't be
the end. Fight for her if you want her, she will love you for it, and if
not, then you know you did everything you could.
I wish you luck.

[Brian]

Well, I didn't totally not do housework...she is just as guilty as I when it
came to not doing much housework..we've had a clean but cluttered house our
entire marriage. We are both pack rats, so she can't stick that on me.

Post by Shelley

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

The worst kind of man to live with apart from an unfaithful one, is one who
doesn't do their share of the chores and pay us (women) enough attention.
It's the aged curse of 'being taken for granted' that kills a lot of
relationships. The problem is a lot of men don't realise how important all
this is until the woman's love dies from neglect, by which time it is too
late.
If the worst does happen, then I hope you will learn from this and make more
of an effort in future relationships. The sad fact is you didn't appreciate
her love when you had it, and maybe it isn't too late to get it back, but it
will take a huge effort from you. Even if she has another man, it needn't be
the end. Fight for her if you want her, she will love you for it, and if
not, then you know you did everything you could.
I wish you luck.

[Whisper]

I dont think you really came here looking to save your marriage.. but
instead for us to tell you to get out..

I think YOU really want out of the relationship but you are going to blame
it all on her..everything you have posted.. says so..

you are playing the "blame game" and not taking any for your self.


Kass

Post by Brian
Well, I didn't totally not do housework...she is just as guilty as I when it
came to not doing much housework..we've had a clean but cluttered house our
entire marriage. We are both pack rats, so she can't stick that on me.

Post by Shelley

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of

this

Post by Shelley

Post by Brian
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

The worst kind of man to live with apart from an unfaithful one, is one

who

Post by Shelley
doesn't do their share of the chores and pay us (women) enough attention.
It's the aged curse of 'being taken for granted' that kills a lot of
relationships. The problem is a lot of men don't realise how important all
this is until the woman's love dies from neglect, by which time it is too
late.
If the worst does happen, then I hope you will learn from this and make

more

Post by Shelley
of an effort in future relationships. The sad fact is you didn't

appreciate

Post by Shelley
her love when you had it, and maybe it isn't too late to get it back,

but

Post by Brian
it

Post by Shelley
will take a huge effort from you. Even if she has another man, it

needn't

Post by Brian
be

Post by Shelley
the end. Fight for her if you want her, she will love you for it, and if
not, then you know you did everything you could.
I wish you luck.

[A man]

In article <bqivur$e3m$***@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, ***@hotmail.com
spoke thusly...

Post by Shelley

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

The worst kind of man to live with apart from an unfaithful one, is one who
doesn't do their share of the chores and pay us (women) enough attention.

So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

[Ignoramus11065]

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

how many spiders, rats, mice, skunks and ground hogs did you kill
lately?

And how many dead mice and rats did you pick?

How often do you reset traps?

Your list of husband duties was kind of impressive but included very
infrequent tasks.

i

[Shelley]

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Oh, please!! Most of those chores need to be done at most weekly! Some of
them annually. My ex husband used to mow the lawn every Sunday and sort the
car out once or twice a month. In return I did all the cooking, all the
cleaning, all the ironing. Washed dishes, made cups of coffee, bathed and
fed the kids, took them to school, took all responsibility for them. On top
of all that I held down a job. We don't all live in areas like you do. We
have no rats, mice or skunks where I am. It snows once a year if we are
lucky. I was lucky to get any time to myself. Now I am single with a
non-resident boyfriend life is ten times easier, and I do most everything
myself!!!
You'll need to come up with a better argument than that Mr A Man.

[Chrys]

Post by Shelley

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Oh, please!! Most of those chores need to be done at most weekly! Some of
them annually. My ex husband used to mow the lawn every Sunday and sort the
car out once or twice a month. In return I did all the cooking, all the
cleaning, all the ironing. Washed dishes, made cups of coffee, bathed and
fed the kids, took them to school, took all responsibility for them. On top
of all that I held down a job. We don't all live in areas like you do. We
have no rats, mice or skunks where I am. It snows once a year if we are
lucky. I was lucky to get any time to myself. Now I am single with a
non-resident boyfriend life is ten times easier, and I do most

everything

Post by Shelley
myself!!!
You'll need to come up with a better argument than that Mr A Man.

Not to mention the fact that for people in apartments, not a single thing
on that list would apply. The only things that are there to be done in
our place is cleaning and laundry. There is nothing else, and if there
was, we'd call the office and get them to come fix it.

[DrLith]

Post by Shelley

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Oh, please!! Most of those chores need to be done at most weekly! Some of
them annually. My ex husband used to mow the lawn every Sunday and sort the
car out once or twice a month. In return I did all the cooking, all the
cleaning, all the ironing. Washed dishes, made cups of coffee, bathed and
fed the kids, took them to school, took all responsibility for them. On top
of all that I held down a job. We don't all live in areas like you do. We
have no rats, mice or skunks where I am. It snows once a year if we are
lucky. I was lucky to get any time to myself. Now I am single with a
non-resident boyfriend life is ten times easier, and I do most everything
myself!!!
You'll need to come up with a better argument than that Mr A Man.

As a social scientist who at one point studied gender relationships for a
living, the whole "division of labor" question is very interesting. I've
always thought that, instead of tallying up how much time each partner
spends "working," it might make more sense to simply calculate how much
time each partner has left over for "leisure." Still not a measure without
its loopholes (does Igor count the time spent visiting his inlaws as
"leisure"? Does Mrs. Igor count the time spent taking Igor Jr. around the
block in the stroller?), but I think a little easier to tally than "work."

[Doug Anderson]

Post by DrLith

Post by Shelley

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Oh, please!! Most of those chores need to be done at most weekly! Some of
them annually. My ex husband used to mow the lawn every Sunday and sort

the

Post by Shelley
car out once or twice a month. In return I did all the cooking, all the
cleaning, all the ironing. Washed dishes, made cups of coffee, bathed and
fed the kids, took them to school, took all responsibility for them. On

top

Post by Shelley
of all that I held down a job. We don't all live in areas like you do. We
have no rats, mice or skunks where I am. It snows once a year if we are
lucky. I was lucky to get any time to myself. Now I am single with a
non-resident boyfriend life is ten times easier, and I do most everything
myself!!!
You'll need to come up with a better argument than that Mr A Man.

As a social scientist who at one point studied gender relationships for a
living, the whole "division of labor" question is very interesting. I've
always thought that, instead of tallying up how much time each partner
spends "working," it might make more sense to simply calculate how much
time each partner has left over for "leisure." Still not a measure without
its loopholes (does Igor count the time spent visiting his inlaws as
"leisure"? Does Mrs. Igor count the time spent taking Igor Jr. around the
block in the stroller?), but I think a little easier to tally than "work."

Yes, that's an interesting point. Add to that the fact that the line
between work and leisure can be blurry. If I'm making dinner for
friends, and they sit and talk with me in the kitchen while I'm
cooking, is that work or leisure? If I pay bills while I watch a
video, is that work or leisure? If I chat with my children while I
make their school lunches, is that work or leisure? When my wife is
gardening (which she enjoys, but which also contributes to the quality
of life for our family by providing a beautiful yard), is that work or
leisure?

But the division is interesting. When I was growing up, in the
families I knew where both parents worked, in all but one of them the
mother was responsible for keeping the house going, and did far more
work at home. Nowadays, this is not true among the families that are
our friends. Although there is nothing representative about this
sample.

[Tony Miller]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:14:54 -0500, A man

Post by A man
spoke thusly...

Post by Shelley

Post by Brian
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she

loves

Post by Brian
me or not? Is that too soon?
Thanks!

The worst kind of man to live with apart from an unfaithful one, is one who
doesn't do their share of the chores and pay us (women) enough attention.

So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car, wash and wax the cars, tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower, clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn, shovel the
snow, pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer, kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps, fix the and
clean the furnace, fix the water and pipe systems, get the sprinklers
ready for winter, shoot the skunks and ground hogs, and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

LOL!!!!

-Tony (hoping his wife isn't listening :))

[Emma Anne]

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car,

Grease Monkey does this

Post by A man
wash and wax the cars,

Car wash

Post by A man
tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower,

Local repair shop

Post by A man
clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn,

DH does these, except we hire domeone to fix the roof.

Post by A man
shovel the
snow,

Both of us

Post by A man
pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer,

I do these

Post by A man
kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps,

Thankfully only spiders at our house. We both take care of them,
although I catch them and put them outside, while DH kills them

Post by A man
fix the and
clean the furnace,

DH puts an air filter in each season. Anything else is the repair folks

Post by A man
fix the water and pipe systems,

Plumber

Post by A man
get the sprinklers
ready for winter,

Me

Post by A man
shoot the skunks and ground hogs,

N/a

Post by A man
and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Call and wait for repair people? Me. Plant things in the yard and take
care of houseplants? Me. Water the lawn and plants? Me. Put up
pictures? DH. Painting? Both of us. Move heavy stuff? DH or both of
us.

Summary: most jobs have been taken on by one or the other of us; i.e.
we've specialized. But we don't divide them up in a particularly gender
related way. Also, we hire out quite a few things (oil changes, etc.).

[Tony Miller]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:29:27 GMT, Emma Anne

Post by Emma Anne

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car,

Grease Monkey does this

Post by A man
wash and wax the cars,

Car wash

Post by A man
tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower,

Local repair shop

Post by A man
clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn,

DH does these, except we hire domeone to fix the roof.

Post by A man
shovel the
snow,

Both of us

Post by A man
pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer,

I do these

Post by A man
kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps,

Thankfully only spiders at our house. We both take care of them,
although I catch them and put them outside, while DH kills them

Post by A man
fix the and
clean the furnace,

DH puts an air filter in each season. Anything else is the repair folks

Post by A man
fix the water and pipe systems,

Plumber

Post by A man
get the sprinklers
ready for winter,

Me

Post by A man
shoot the skunks and ground hogs,

N/a

Post by A man
and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Call and wait for repair people? Me. Plant things in the yard and take
care of houseplants? Me. Water the lawn and plants? Me. Put up
pictures? DH. Painting? Both of us. Move heavy stuff? DH or both of
us.
Summary: most jobs have been taken on by one or the other of us; i.e.
we've specialized. But we don't divide them up in a particularly gender
related way. Also, we hire out quite a few things (oil changes, etc.).

It's all well and good that you have the disposable income to hire out
those things that you do. If you have enough disposable income, you can
hire a cook and a maid.

My wife and I don't. Over the years, I've literally saved 10s of
thousands of dollars by doing a lot of the household improvements and
repairs myself. When I first started, I really didn't know what I was
doing, so the Time-Life repair series books really came in handy.

Here's the question. You hire out all those other things, do you have a
cook and a maid? If not, why not?

-Tony

[Emma Anne]

Post by Tony Miller
Here's the question. You hire out all those other things, do you have a
cook and a maid? If not, why not?

We have a cleaning service once every two weeks. We aren't *that*
affluent. :-)

[Tony Miller]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:33:24 GMT, Emma Anne

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Tony Miller
Here's the question. You hire out all those other things, do you have a
cook and a maid? If not, why not?

We have a cleaning service once every two weeks. We aren't *that*
affluent. :-)

Well, then, what do people do who aren't affluent enough to hire out all
the things you mentioned? Where the wiring, plumbing, toilet operation,
computer support, yard work, additions, reconfigurations, and countless
other things are done by the husband?

The wife says: I do all the cooking and cleaning and laundry and you don't
do anything!!!! (Like all of a sudden cooking, cleaning and laundry are
the only things that happen around the house).

You don't do anything!!! She says. He says: I installed three new outlets
in the house you asked for. She says: That was only one day!!! He says:
But it took me 12 hours.

-Tony

[Emma Anne]

Post by Tony Miller
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:33:24 GMT, Emma Anne

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Tony Miller
Here's the question. You hire out all those other things, do you have a
cook and a maid? If not, why not?

We have a cleaning service once every two weeks. We aren't *that*
affluent. :-)

Well, then, what do people do who aren't affluent enough to hire out all
the things you mentioned?

I would like to say one thing about this. Being able to afford or not
afford something isn't black and white (unless you really are poor). We
do pay people to a lot of our scut work, because we don't like it. But
we don't take expensive vacations or buy cars very often or spend a lot
on clothes or eating out. What you can afford is largely a matter of
priorities, once you are in a middle class situation.

Post by Tony Miller
Where the wiring, plumbing, toilet operation,
computer support, yard work, additions, reconfigurations, and countless
other things are done by the husband?
The wife says: I do all the cooking and cleaning and laundry and you don't
do anything!!!! (Like all of a sudden cooking, cleaning and laundry are
the only things that happen around the house).
You don't do anything!!! She says. He says: I installed three new outlets
But it took me 12 hours.

OK, what you have here is a failure to communicate. I am guessing that
it isn't that you aren't doing enough around the house, but rather you
aren't doing enough of the things *she wants you to do*. Al though she
did *ask* for the outlets. Still, you two need to sit down and talk,
because everyone needs to feel supported and everyone needs to feel
appreciated.

[Bill in Co.]

Post by Emma Anne

Post by A man
So if we do half the household chores, you'll help change the oil in
the car,

Grease Monkey does this

Post by A man
wash and wax the cars,

Car wash

Post by A man
tune up the snow blower, weed whacker,
lawn mower,

Local repair shop

Post by A man
clean the gutters, fix the roof, mow the lawn,

DH does these, except we hire domeone to fix the roof.

Post by A man
shovel the
snow,

Both of us

Post by A man
pull weeds, spray toxic weed killer,

I do these

Post by A man
kill the spiders, rats, and
mice, pick up the dead mice and rats and reset the traps,

Thankfully only spiders at our house. We both take care of them,
although I catch them and put them outside, while DH kills them

Post by A man
fix the and
clean the furnace,

DH puts an air filter in each season. Anything else is the repair folks

Post by A man
fix the water and pipe systems,

Plumber

Post by A man
get the sprinklers
ready for winter,

Me

Post by A man
shoot the skunks and ground hogs,

N/a

Post by A man
and all that other
stuff that really doesn't matter?

Call and wait for repair people? Me. Plant things in the yard and take
care of houseplants? Me. Water the lawn and plants? Me. Put up
pictures? DH. Painting? Both of us. Move heavy stuff? DH or both of
us.
Summary: most jobs have been taken on by one or the other of us; i.e.
we've specialized. But we don't divide them up in a particularly gender
related way. Also, we hire out quite a few things (oil changes, etc.).

BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not everyone is a
lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

[Emma Anne]

Post by Bill in Co.
BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not everyone is a
lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

Then we'd have to do it ourselves.

[Ignoramus24587]

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Bill in Co.
BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not everyone is a
lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

Then we'd have to do it ourselves.

and then your husband would be doing much of the yard stuff and repairs, right?

Or would you be doing much of it?

i

[Marcus Ulpius Traianus]

Post by Ignoramus24587

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Bill in Co.
BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not
everyone is a lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

Then we'd have to do it ourselves.

and then your husband would be doing much of the yard stuff and repairs,
right? Or would you be doing much of it?

Or would they simply get put off?

[Emma Anne]

Post by Ignoramus24587

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Bill in Co.
BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not
everyone is a lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

Then we'd have to do it ourselves.

and then your husband would be doing much of the yard stuff and repairs, right?

He does most repairs, but I do computer and network maintenance, and any
phone and electrical stuff that is safe.

Post by Ignoramus24587
Or would you be doing much of it?

I traditionally do everything in the yard *except* mow the lawn.
Watering, weed killing, seeding, planting, etc.

We used to do more stuff, when we were poorer. We tried then and we try
now to negotiate things so its fairly equitable, based on who likes
what, who's good at what, who has time.

[Ignoramus6098]

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Ignoramus24587

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Bill in Co.
BUT - what if you didn't have the income to do all that? (not
everyone is a lawyer or doctor or whatever, you know)? Then?

Then we'd have to do it ourselves.

and then your husband would be doing much of the yard stuff and repairs, right?

He does most repairs, but I do computer and network maintenance, and any
phone and electrical stuff that is safe.

that's great, although I am surprised by your qualifier "all
electrical stuff that is safe". I thought that all electrical stuff
was safe.

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Ignoramus24587
Or would you be doing much of it?

I traditionally do everything in the yard *except* mow the lawn.
Watering, weed killing, seeding, planting, etc.

I am very impressed with you Emma. I always liked mechanically
inclined women.

My problem with hired help is this. We do have money to hire people.
But hiring people to do stuff is typically no less hassle than just
doing it yourself, even if cost of tools was included.

You have to find the person, negotiate the price, then they don't do
it right, you have to watch them, it is endless bullshit.

i

[A man]

Post by Brian
Hi!
My wife and I have been married for 8 years. We have had many ups and downs.
She is very irritable and has a very short temper and next to no patience. I
can be at times lazy, unmotivated, forgetful and scatterbrained. Our
homelife is basically kind of routine and ho-hum right now.

Sounds like typical symptoms of clinical depression, or dysthymia. BTW,
the attributes you describe in the 1st and 2nd paragraphs is exactly
how my marriage goes.

Post by Brian
Well, I've finally learned to live with her quirks though she has a low
tolerance for mine. We recently decided to try to have a baby which I did
not force her into.
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact

Sorry to say, she very likely is boinking another guy on the side.

Post by Brian
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me
Now, mind you, I'd support her through this crisis but she doesn't support
me or even seemed moved that it has made this grown man cry almost every
night for a week.
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?

Would you like to stay in a relationship where the other one treats you
like crap and uses you for a doormat? Get out now before she causes any
more emotional damage to you or your baby.

Post by Brian
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?

No.

Post by Brian
What it really going on in her head?

She has another guy on the side, she can't cope with people who are
different from her (a serious personality problem), and she just
doesn't want to be married anymore but is too weak to admit it to
herself or to you.

Post by Brian
If she said she still loved me and needed my support, that would make a
world of difference but she seems like she just can't stand the sight of me.
If this helps, she is in a new job where we made enough for us to get her
dream car. She also loves this job and people call her giggles and she seems
to like this new attention she is getting. And she really volunteers for
Saturday's a lot now at work.

Again, she must be dating a guy at work.

Post by Brian
We've been heavy in debt since marriage but she has never really been "in
need." We have a nice house, she has been on some great vacations and again,
has her dream car.
I did seek some counseling on my end and agreed to give her a week of this
"space" she wants. After that week, I pretty much need to know if she loves
me or not? Is that too soon?

No. Again, I know it's painful, but get out now before things get worse
and she runs up the credit cards and ruins your credit rating, and
other parts of your life.

[Emma Anne]

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch

Etc.

Sounds like an affair to me. If you want to save your marriage, you can
try marriagebuilders. Whether you do or not, be scrupulous with birth
control.

[Coorslte]

/snip/

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

/snip/

My first wife displayed a lot of these changes (except the going out
part) the year before we separated. After we separated and I got out
of the "being a failure" funk, I realized several things:

- She married me because here more spending habits had almost driven her
to bankruptcy and needed an additional paycheck
- Out marriage was great until the out of control spending got us into
trouble also
- After digging ourselves out of serious debt (about 18 months), she
received promotions and salary increases and felt better about the marriage
- The out of control spending soon started again (seeing a pattern here)
and the debt began, she began thinking "I can support myself if I didn't
just have all of this credit card debt (over $40K)".
- She soon left me (with all of the debt). I being an idiot accepted
and dug myself out of debt (about 36 months this time)

I was never more than a paycheck to her. Today she is remarried,
bought a new expensive home and is deep in debt again (her words) and
doesn't pay anything for the kids (no college funds, no extras for them).


I am not saying your wife is like this but I do see some similarities.

[Doug Anderson]

Post by Coorslte
/snip/

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

/snip/
My first wife displayed a lot of these changes (except the going out
part) the year before we separated. After we separated and I got out
- She married me because here more spending habits had almost driven
her to bankruptcy and needed an additional paycheck
- Out marriage was great until the out of control spending got us into
trouble also

If she just married you for your paycheck, how was your marriage able
to be "great," even for a little while? Surely there is an
oversimplification lurking there.

[Brian]

Hey man..this sounds a lot like me...I think she is clouded by something and
I've given her ample time to think about this. If she wants to split, then I
guess I am making the first move to protect me.

Post by Coorslte
/snip/

Post by Brian
she has been staying up late doing exercise videos
she has gone back on her diet,
secretly going to tanning beds (didn't tell me at first)
sleeping on the couch
avoiding any hugs or other contact
telling me she doesn't know if she loves me or not
rolls her eyes and says "oh brother" when I've cried over his behavior
(takes a lot for me to cry)
avoids talking about "us" to the point where she just closes her ears
she wont fully communicate her issues (that's really always been a problem)
she spent last Friday and Saturday night out with "friends" until 11 PM and
3 AM respectfully (which she never has done before)
she doesn't email me from work anymore
only talks "business" (paying bills, doing chores, etc)
says she never had a chance to "do what she wants" because she went from
living at home with a curfew (got married at 22) to being married. But I've
never held her back from "going out" if she wanted to.
wont go to counseling
she is basically too busy for me

/snip/
My first wife displayed a lot of these changes (except the going out
part) the year before we separated. After we separated and I got out
- She married me because here more spending habits had almost driven her
to bankruptcy and needed an additional paycheck
- Out marriage was great until the out of control spending got us into
trouble also
- After digging ourselves out of serious debt (about 18 months), she
received promotions and salary increases and felt better about the marriage
- The out of control spending soon started again (seeing a pattern here)
and the debt began, she began thinking "I can support myself if I didn't
just have all of this credit card debt (over $40K)".
- She soon left me (with all of the debt). I being an idiot accepted
and dug myself out of debt (about 36 months this time)
I was never more than a paycheck to her. Today she is remarried,
bought a new expensive home and is deep in debt again (her words) and
doesn't pay anything for the kids (no college funds, no extras for them).
I am not saying your wife is like this but I do see some similarities.

[Petepastie]

There's a saying that goes "You always want what you can't have". Basically you
got to start taking less interest in your wife and start going out more. Start
doing the things that you want to do and spend less time with her. Have your
secrets and late night outings with friends. Then you'll see that she will
want to know where you've been and who with. Turn the tables on her and she
will be the jealous one. Oh and go out and bang some hot babe like everyone
says

[resist_nothing]

Post by Brian
Hi!
<sni>
Though I am very against divorce, is that my only option now?
Is it too early to think the "D-Word"?
What it really going on in her head?

Check out the book "Divorce Remedy" by Michele Weiner-Davis

You can also check out the associated website: www.divorcebusting.com

I'm not affiliated with the author in any way...I'm just a happy
customer...a year ago my h. of 8 years told me he wasn't sure he
wanted to be married anymore....didn't want to work on the m....had NO
interest in counselling, etc. WITHOUT his "input" I started
implementing the DR philosophy (work on yourself, address behaviors
that your spouse has issues with, create your own happiness, etc). It
was NOT an easy road at all...but I'm happy to report success AND a
much happier husband and wife. And...a much "better" person in me,
too.

Good luck.
resist_nothing